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Info about crafting

Discussion in 'General discussion' started by kristakis, Jul 9, 2015.

  1. kristakis

    kristakis misses faufau :( Golden Founder

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    Hi,

    I would love to know more about the crafting systems you have planned. In one of the videos you showed a mech on a crafting table thing and didn't go into any detail about it. Also there's video of the ship being built from what looks like pre-constructed pieces. So, some questions:

    1. Do you make pieces and then assemble them to form larger objects such as mechs and ships?
    2. If you make pieces then are there multiple types of the same piece - ie can I make an iron leg for a mech and a titanium one?
    3. Does the item being build gain any stats from the parts that built it - ie if I use titanium legs on my mech will it have more armour than if I'd used iron legs?
    4. If items have stats then can you choose what those stats are or are they random.
    5. How does resource gathering work - I saw what looked like thumpers in one of the videos
    6. Do you have to process gathered resources before being able to use them in crafting?
    7a. Do the raw resources have stats at all?
    7b. Do the raw resources have variable stats?
    8a. Do the refined resources have stats?
    8b. Do the refined resources have variable stats?
    8c. Can you vary the stats on refined resources in any way like via the refining process?
    9. Are there any negative stats on items - ie stats that you want to try and minimise when crafting rather than just maximising all stats
    10. Is there player-to-player trading?
    11a. Is there an Auction House?
    11b. Is the AH centralised (like WoW) or distributed (like EVE)
    12. Is skilling up crafting going to be a case of repeatedly making an item.
    13. Is there a salvage/disenchant/reverse engineer mechanic that you can use to destroy gear you don't want to get parts back
    14. Can one character do all crafting professions?
    15. Can you level up via only crafting?
    16. Are there any skill point mechanisms where you have to choose between spending points in crafting or combat (like SWG)
    17. Where/how do you get crafting recipes/patterns/blueprints?
    18. Are any crafting professions going to require materials from other crafting professions?
    19. Are any recipes going to require vendor-purchased materials?
    20. How will crafted gear compare to world/boss drops?
    21a. Do items have durability?
    21b. If items have durability, is it permanent (like SWG) or just a gold sink (like WoW)
    21c. Can you permanently lose an item through use or death?

    That's my short list, I can ask a heap more once I have more info.
     
  2. Sir CrossBorn

    Sir CrossBorn Community Manager, English Forum Staff Member

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    Great post and Excellent questions, I was wondering about crafting myself as it is a big draw for me in any mmo type game.

    For instance under the weapons descriptions page it shows 6 total parts to a weapon including the main body, so I am hopeful you will be able to customize your weapons a lot to fit each persons individual play style. It also mentions high end components, will those be crafted or a drop from high end mobs or a combination of both?
    Please for the love of all that is good make crafted gear at the minimum comparable to dropped gear if not better for something crafted by a Master crafter.
    Almost every game out there these days makes it so that every single person in the game can become a Master Crafter with little to no effort. Make it difficult and rewarding for someone to reach that rank of crafting, where their goods are sought out by players because of the quality and craftsmanship. Have the goods crafted by them recognizable by name or a Sigil or some form so that people know who made it.
     
  3. Vesta

    Vesta 3D modeller Staff Member

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    Yes, the assembly will be in several stages. First there will be gathered frame and then trim, then mounted electronics and other equipment.

    No, you can`t for now, because mech is a one-piece construction in our game. But in the future we may allow players to replace main parts of mech by others.

    Part of the answer in the previous answer. But as for crafting in general - yes. Than better material you use, than the better weapon\ armor stats will be.

    to be continue...
     
  4. Vesta

    Vesta 3D modeller Staff Member

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    Each weapon \ armor \ equipment has its own characteristics range. Object index will not come out of these limits. It will be possible going beyond only in the case of their craft with better materials. Finest materials crafting will give the chance to get unique bonuses for equipment also.
     
  5. kristakis

    kristakis misses faufau :( Golden Founder

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    Thanks for the replies, I look forward to hearing more. Do you have plans to do a video on crafting?
     
  6. Vesta

    Vesta 3D modeller Staff Member

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    We plan to do video reviews in future.
     
  7. Nevyn

    Nevyn Rookie

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    I'll do the normal mention of 'RNG is not fun' for crafting.
    Different combinations of base materials may result in different stats, but you should never be rolling random stats, even if it's along the lines of (25 points go to random places but you always get 25).
    The reason for this is it's simply a make work which then forces you to make 10 of the item to get the particular stat set that you want it to have.

    So an ideal crafting system for me. (Which also tends onto an economy system)
    Simple base resource gathering. Resource gathering should not require massive game time investment. It may require me to invest in some real time delays, but if I have to spend my play time grinding materials it quickly becomes unfun and people will resort to bots.
    These simple base resources then get used to build 'frames' and 'balanced items'. Frames and Balanced items referring to non specialised versions with base stats, or say for multi-part Mechs, the basic skeleton. Lots of these can be consumed per item based on size.
    Specialised resources. These may take more time to find, but should not be RNG drop from mob. As nothing is worse than a bad RNG streak for causing frustration. They 'could' be mob drops though, just reliable ones. The 'finding' of these should be the main in game component, once 'found' they should not take that long to gather. And if they are not defended but just random locations they should be utterly random, not a pattern or spawn nodes. Not many of these should be consumed. These then alter the balanced generic stats to weight them in a particular direction. For example taking a rifle for an example, you can weight for accuracy, range, damage, etc. Possibly several slots you can weight in different ways etc.
    Unique resources. Again should not be RNG drops, but can be 'raid' loot rewards. These will give better bonuses and unique bonuses when used to 'modify' the item compared to a specialised resource.

    Add ons.
    These are entirely separate items that you then bolt onto the base item. Taking the example of the previously mentioned rifle, these would be things like scopes, under barrelled grenade launchers etc.

    Also item destruction. There needs to be a constant and consistent source of item destruction in the game.
    If items are not destroyed, then inflation happens fast, and high level characters once geared are done.
    But at the same time you don't want to make it too hard for characters to get back on their feet.
    So.... Item destruction could be total, in which case 'base' items available to everyone need to be pretty good, or it could be 'add ons' like mentioned above that get destroyed on death. Item wear is a 'money' sink, but is not a resource sink so does not work to keep an economy turning over.
    Alternatively the base characters items could be safe, in which case we want to encourage use of a lot of 'things' such as mining equipment, vehicles, deployable drones and the like which get destroyed separate from the character, to provide this sink.

    And base materials should not be 'level' bound. You should not tier up materials automatically as you level. Crafting should work sensibly. If you are making armour, or mechs or whatever they should all focus on the same core material that is logical, such as steel. The 'modifying' parts could be based on levels with higher level modifying materials giving you better bonuses but needing higher skill to use. But a base material should not suddenly change because you gained levels.
     
  8. Sir CrossBorn

    Sir CrossBorn Community Manager, English Forum Staff Member

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    Excellent points Nevyn,
    RNG just plain sucks and is never fun.
    I would add to the item destruction the ability to repair an item, some type of durability system seems to work the best as it allows you to keep that "awesome" item you crafted because it just plain sucks to completely lose something you spent the time and resources to get just right.
    Resource gathering I agree on as well because Bots over run games anymore so fast its ridiculous, I certainly hope the Devs have a plan to control both any bot programs and RMT sellers as well.
    So tired of the games anymore that when you log in you have to spend 20 mins every time deleting spam gold seller messages and blocking them out of chat.
     
  9. kristakis

    kristakis misses faufau :( Golden Founder

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    I wholeheatedly agree.

    I think along similar lines. There is one place that I think a small amount of randomisation can work.

    Lemme tell you a little about how Firefall used to work. Back in the beta there where 9 resources broken up into 3 groups of 3. Each resource had 5 stats (called aspects) and these were randomised within certain range limits. So Resource1's first aspect could be anywhere from 300 to 500 on a 1-1000 scale. This week, that resource's first aspect might be 340, next week it might be 402. The average of the aspects was called a Quality or Q number so Q1 had the lowest limit of each aspect and Q1000 had the highest.

    Here's an example:
    [​IMG]

    That Corallite has maxed Density but quite low Malleability.

    At any one time there was only 1 active resource of each type at a time but you could scan around and find different ones as "last week's" resource would stick around until it had been extracted or expired. To extract resources from the world you would run around and scan the ground with a device. This device would tell you what % of what resources were present in the 250m radius around your scan location. Let's say it said there was 55% concentration of Resource1 in the area. You would call down a Thumper which would fly down and land on the ground. The thumper would slam the ground for 5 minutes and agro a lot of the nearby wildlife which would attack it. You had to defend the thumper 'til it was done and then launch it. If that thumper could hold 1000 resources then it'd have 550 of the named material and 450 useless dirt (for flavour reasons).

    A thumper running on a corallite node.
    [​IMG]

    As well as a novel resource collection mechanism, this was also a source of variable content. If you thumped on the beach then sea creatures would come while thumping near the mountains would spawn different mobs. These different mobs would drop various parts that you also needed - chitin from the sea crabs, hides from the inland wolves etc.

    There were different sizes of thumpers too - the largest of them required a full squad of 5 players to defend but gave a lot more rewards than just solo'ing the smalles thumper. You could solo a Small Thumper in starter gear, but the medium and large solo thumpers needed you to be better geared or skilled.

    Comparison of thumper sizes
    [​IMG]

    Here's an example thump using the Personal III thumper sped up a bit so it's more interesting. The class I'm playing here places gun turrets and repairs them rather than having a huge gun. I used my grenade launcher secondary weapon instead. Near the end I got into the "ultimate" ability, a big gun turret. The thumper finished on 63% health at the end and I had a little dance :D

    Now the best part was how the aspects of the resources were used. Your character lived fulltime in a power suit and the gear you equiped had positive stats such as rate of fire, health and damage but also negative stats such as mass (increasing this slowed you down), power drain (your suit has a power limit) and CPU cores (another limit but one that can be increased at the cost of power). So when you crafted a weapon you could just max out the RoF and Dmg but doing so would make an item that was too heavy and/or required too much power and you couldn't equip it.

    Each part that mades up a weapon would be affected by the quality of the resorces. If you plotted this on a graph you could see where the sweet spots were. For example here's the plot of the Damage Per Round and Power requirement of an Assault Rifle Receiver. You want the highest DPR you can, but you need to take into account how much power this item will require.

    Example of how Q level affected items
    [​IMG]

    If I only have 10 power to spare then I need to keep the quality below about 530. But you'll see that the DPR for a Q530 is the same as a Q360 so I could just make that and actually have less power required for the same damage output. That's what I call meaningful decisions!

    Because sometimes you wanted to use low Q materials and other times you wanted high Q there was always a demand for materials of all different qualities - it wasn't the case that low was inferior and high was superior. In most games that have a quality system it boils down to higher is better and that's it. This is just the most basic example, the actual system had a number of extra subtlties that I could write pages on, but the short version is that the randomisation on the resources was fantastic. There was no randomisation on the crafting too - it was a crafter's dream and IMHO the only game since SWG to even be considered "crafting".

    I think it's very important to allow post-creation changes to crafted items. This means that I can produce a quality base item and the customer can refine that to their specific use case.

    Absolutely! Unfortunately this game has levels so people are going to expect item destruction to be something they choose to do via upgrades rather than neccesity but we can hope the devs take this into account.

    I agree but believe that how resources are handled is a reflection on the game's attitude towards crafting. In WoW crafting is just another resource/time sink to keep people busy so the resources are simplified and meaningless. In Firefall crafting was very important so the aspects on resources had value. We'll have to wait and see how important crafting is to this game but my hope is that it is and the crafting is optional, complex and interesting.

    edit: edited the text a little to make it clearer, I tend to ramble. jazzed the post up with some pics and a video
     
  10. Sir CrossBorn

    Sir CrossBorn Community Manager, English Forum Staff Member

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    I thought I read somewhere, maybe in the discussion on the Greenlight page that they are going to try and go along the lines that SWG crafting system had. If so that's great as it was one of the best crafting systems in almost any game to date.
     
  11. Siha

    Siha Rookie

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    That would be excellent news if so. Like so many others, SWG introduced me to the joys of meaningful crafting, and no other game has scratched that itch properly since then. (Firefall came close; the crafting side was close to spot on, but the economy never quite worked.)

    An engaging crafting system is probably the #1 thing I want in a game. I summed up my feelings here, but here's the basic gist of what - to me - makes a crafting system great:

     
    kristakis likes this.
  12. kristakis

    kristakis misses faufau :( Golden Founder

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    Unfortunately Firefall never managed to get all the pieces in place at the same time. They had the best crafting since SWG but without player trading and item destruction it was pointless. Everyone was forced to create their own gear and that's not what shooter players sign up for. Later on they introduced item destruction but still no trading and then eventually that was removed and trading was added. If only they'd had all 3 in place at the same time!

    I'm very keen to hear more about how PG is going to handle crafting, trading and item destruction! :D
     
  13. Sir CrossBorn

    Sir CrossBorn Community Manager, English Forum Staff Member

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    Siha you wrote everything there that I totally agree on and mentioned in another of my posts, just not so meaningfully.

    Crafting in games these days has become a sideline with no real meaning to it. No one can rise to Fame/Fortune and be recognized anymore as it is something everyone can do with little to no effort other than grinding/putting in a little time, chunking out a thousand of these parts to get that extra skill point to then chunk out another thousand parts. and then all those parts are worthless and go in the trash can or flood the market for little to no value.
    It needs to go back to something that takes effort, time, and skill to accomplish so that it has a meaning to a player and the player base as well as the economy of a game.
    Too many companies have succumbed to the incessant whining of the "I want it all and I want it now" crowds. I do not think they understand how many multitudes of players want something more difficult and challenging again.
     
  14. Vesta

    Vesta 3D modeller Staff Member

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    In addition to the drilling rigs, the player will be able to collect resources and manually using special drills and other devices and also to extract from mobs \ quests \ Events.

    Yes, many resources before using will need to be pre-treated. Special professions and special equipment for processing will be responsible for that.

    Each resource type, such as iron, is identical. We will not do hardcore as it`s done in The Repopulation game and how it was at the start of Firefall game, when the same resource had many subspecies.

    The same as in paragraph 7. But you can clean or disinfect it. So it will have a new resource type, suitable for the crafting and use. So It will have a new resource type, suitable for the crafting and using.

    to be continue...
    I am sorry for my rare answers.
     
  15. Vesta

    Vesta 3D modeller Staff Member

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    There will be a chance to get negative indicators of certain characteristics at crafting. If the profession responsible for the craft is higher, than chance to create high-quality product will be higher also.
    Yes, player-to-player trading and auction will be realized.
    No, It is not planned.

    I am sorry for my English, but I hope you understand me. :oops:
    to be continue...
     
  16. Sir CrossBorn

    Sir CrossBorn Community Manager, English Forum Staff Member

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    Vesta,
    Thank you for the additional information. Its starting to sound more like crafting may be a well thought out idea in your game. I am looking so so forward to trying it out.

    Can you give us any information on whether the Crafting will be a grind 1k items to get the next point or will it be more skill based and something hard to achieve mastery over or is it going to be something everyone just does because they can?

    It sounds like the majority of us that are commenting are very hopeful for your crafting system to be something that is integral to the game and hard to master, with crafted items being on par or even better than what can be found from drops or raid/dungeon type loot.
    Thanks in advance!
     
  17. Vesta

    Vesta 3D modeller Staff Member

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    The crafting system will be multi-faceted and varied. The player will not be limited by only way of leveling crafting. We`ll talk about crafting in details in the near future.
     
  18. moyraine

    moyraine Inquisitive

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    I admit I love what I'm seeing about the crafting. It was the resource gatherer in one video I saw that piqued my interest about the game. Immediately brought to mind my enjoyable days in SWG as a Master Doc biomeds crafter and my alt Armorsmithing toon. Both of which I loved almost as much as my Ent. :)

    It seems you're implementing a SWG style crafting system here. and that more then anything will get me to pay money for the game. I was an avid crafter in SWG and have been looking for a decent sci-fi game with similar crafting mechanics for many years. I hope Project Genom is the one.
     
  19. Vesta

    Vesta 3D modeller Staff Member

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    Friends!
    We do not forget about the development of new opportunities, parallel to the next test preparation.
    Now we would like to talk about crafting items collectively, as many were interested in information on this subject. Almost all things in the game can be created from hand materials by a player, if there is a recipe and these same materials.
    If we have enough crafting skill, we can learn a recipe that will disappear from your backpack, and appears in the list of recipes where we can read the description and the basic parameters of the future object.
    When we chose a recipe from the left, it will unfold in the right part of the window.
    We will see the description of the current settings there again, as well as slots for ingredients at the top.
    Each slot corresponds to one of the ingredient type material (iron, cloth, chitin, etc.). In this case, you can assume any material in the slot if it matches the slot type. For example, you can be put iron metal or gold or platinum or any other metal in the slot, if we have sufficient.
    Each ingredient provides its pros and cons in the parameters of weapons, as well as affect the chances of a successful craft (just for the chance of a successful craft affects the number of learned schemes of this subject).
    Any recipe has an ideal material, all other materials are suitable worse (but this does not mean that the subject will also become worse in the parameters).
    For example, we can gather the run from recommended Iron with a probability of 80%, received damage of 12-15 and 10-12 rate.
    But we can insert into the slot metal Gold, reducing the chance of crafting up to 40%, but received an increase to the damage, and a tiny minus to the rate of thereby changing the settings to the damage rate of 20-25 and 9-12.
    As a result, pushed the most inappropriate, expensive and rare materials into a good recipe, experimenting with combinations, having a master skills and including all your luck, we will be able to collect such items that whole server will be envied. :D

    p.s. I`m sorry for my English.
     

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  20. Sir CrossBorn

    Sir CrossBorn Community Manager, English Forum Staff Member

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    Understood you well enough Vesta :D
    Sounds better and better, being able to experiment and create unique items is definitely a plus!

    You mentioned that a recipe will be moved from the backpack into a recipes list, does that mean that recipes can or will be dropped from mobs, harvesting a resource?

    Will certain Recipes only be available to find from a group event like a dungeon run or will all recipes be able to be found solo?

    Are the recipes when found able to be sold on the Auction House or will they be Soul/Character Bound?

    When a Unique item is created thru experimenting with different materials will it then become a known recipe that can be reproduced at will or just a chance creation?

    Thanks!
     

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