Poll Out of combat Shield/HP regen rates

Discussion in 'General discussion' started by Pighead Elderberry, Dec 21, 2015.

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Should Out of Combat (OOC):

  1. HP regen OOC Increase

    18 vote(s)
    72.0%
  2. HP regen OOC Decrease

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. HP regen OOC Stay the Same

    6 vote(s)
    24.0%
  4. Shield regen OOC Increase

    19 vote(s)
    76.0%
  5. Shield regen OOC Decrease

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Shield regen OOC Stay the Same

    4 vote(s)
    16.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Pighead Elderberry

    Pighead Elderberry Wanderer Golden Founder

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    I have noticed that sometimes I am out of combat completely and simply waiting for my shields/health to regenerate enough to go fight more.

    I am completely in a safe place, but I need to sit and wait for what seems like too long a time for shields in particular.

    We do not want to be supermen with HP coming back too fast, but I think our shields should regenerate faster when we are out of combat for a long enough time.

    Perhaps, the shields could be as they are now, then after a certain time in seconds as long as we are not in combat they regenerate at a faster rate.

    I know it is a balance between keeping combat a fair challenge (we should not be invulnerable) and not having us sit around bored waiting for shields/hp to return when a fight is over.

    If the enemies have similar regenerative rates, then it is fair enough for combat that they can recover as we do. This would avoid us running an enemy down in HP, running away, getting our shields fast back up, then coming back again and finishing the enemy who did not have the same fast regeneration.

    I do not have the same feeling about HP, as that seems like we should be healing slowly and/or using some kind of healing mechanic.

    It does seem that the shield rate of recovery makes me sit idle in place too often when a fight it over and I want to be moving to the next fight but must wait.

    OUT OF COMBAT VS. IN COMBAT RATES
    These situations are when one fight is over and I must wait for shields to start another one - not so much that in the same fight I want to be able to duck behind a rock and get my shields back. That might be another discussion - for in combat regeneration rates.
     
  2. SomeUnregPunk

    SomeUnregPunk Inquisitive Golden Founder

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    since you have been playing a bit longer than I have...

    The green bar is your shield and the red bar is your HP... so what's the bar under that?
    It's can't be the experience bar because that's on the bottom of the screen.


    oh... in regard to the thread...
    I think something like this should left to crafting or some other tweak-able mechanic.
    Something that the player themselves can affect. So at first you got to worry about this but later you don't if you or other players craft the gear your using properly or something.
     
  3. Pighead Elderberry

    Pighead Elderberry Wanderer Golden Founder

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    I wish I knew. I think it may relate somehow to Stamina or is a placeholder for something.

    Along these lines, some kind of quick explanation for all UI and basic impact of stats might be a help.

    Is there such a thing? Is that something we as players should create, or do the devs want to do that?

    I am not certain, for example, what Intelligence and Perception impact in the game.

    I see Strength, Endurance, Stamina, and I think Agility impacts damage dealt.

    is Perception impacting accuracy? Is intelligence implemented yet?

    Do any stats at this time influence weapon spread?

    etc. etc.

    etc.
     
  4. Pighead Elderberry

    Pighead Elderberry Wanderer Golden Founder

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    Update post 1st Open World Patch

    1) The extra bar is Energy (which is modified by Intelligence)

    2) Agility impacts damage of light weapon types

    3) Perception impacts damage of Rifles and such

    As far as the OOC regeneration rates and delays...

    I started a new character, and I did most all of the starter quests that got me to Level 5 before I went outside. I put all my points pretty much into Agility and have the super powerful Marauder Pistol Common grade from the quest.

    I can always kill one Level 4 Young Hound without risk, but it takes me down enough that I must then go pause and wait to do another one. If I do two at once, I am at great risk. This would not be a problem, were it not for the slow rate of shields (and/or HP) and the delay for shields to start regenerating.

    It feels like I should be able in this simple example, to kill a Level 4 Young Hound, take some damage, and quickly get back into battle for another one. This is a very simple example, but it is giving me too much 'wait and recover' time.

    The level of difficulty for the Level 4 Young Hounds and Level 4 Hound Does feels fine for me as a noob Level 5, but the recovery between fights seems too long.

    p.s. It is good that the Level 4 Hounds (Does vs Young) are NOT identical in HP and danger to me. We have a nice variety of enemy difficulties across the so called level range.
     
  5. SomeUnregPunk

    SomeUnregPunk Inquisitive Golden Founder

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    how are you killing them? those pups have a close range attack... so you could back away from them while using your pistol on them... just try not to get too far away from them or they return back to their spawn point with an instant 100% health.
     
  6. Pighead Elderberry

    Pighead Elderberry Wanderer Golden Founder

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    That is a whole topic unto itself.

    Right now we see no slowing down or pausing of enemies when we shoot them (a la FF's stutter step dance of the Chosen). They rush up quickly to engage us in melee. Our aim is not really good enough to his the as they run this fast, and then they are onto us. Then, as you note, if we keep backing up, they jump back to 100% health again at their boundary limit.

    So, what I do (which is worth starting another thread about) is basically get one or two shots into them, and then I just go toe to toe shooting into them and hope to get out ahead.

    Right now this is most of the combat I ever see.

    I think it is worth a separate thread to discuss (Genom obviously knows this and it is part of Alpha - but worth talking about now).
     
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  7. Vesta

    Vesta 3D modeller Staff Member

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    It`s good. We read all your posts. Thanks a lot for your advises, your thinking, your opinion, your suggestions!
     
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  8. Pighead Elderberry

    Pighead Elderberry Wanderer Golden Founder

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    Thank you!

    From our side, it means a lot to all of us that you guys are so welcoming to our comments and suggestions!
     
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  9. SneakySnail

    SneakySnail Rookie Silver Founder

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    Feel both need to be increased or an item added for healing/shield regen, say 100 credits for a medkit that you can only use out of combat. played a bit using tactical and assault armor and it seems very slow either way, either waiting for the shield or HP. think it's slightly worse for assault armor users because people also put stats into boosting max hp so you end up with a huge hp pool. could recharge my shield at least 3-4 times before my hp is all back where as tactical armor is fractionally more shield/hp balanced i guess
     
  10. Pighead Elderberry

    Pighead Elderberry Wanderer Golden Founder

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    Having done several characters now up through about Level 10, I can say that I have spent a lot of time just sitting and waiting both for shield and HP to regenerate.

    I changed my answer for HP to faster. At first I thought HP rates were OK, but as soon as you get to higher levels you sit around for a very long time waiting for HP long after your shields (as SneakySnail notes).

    At the low levels (1-5) it seems OK, but as soon as you are getting up past level 8, it is very obvious that rates are far too slow.

    We need to be playing and doing things, not sitting and waiting.
     
  11. Mortis

    Mortis Rookie

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    Hello, I am new here but have been a gamer (both computer and paper) since the 70s, and while I haven't yet even played here, I think this comment from Punk -

    "oh... in regard to the thread...
    I think something like this should left to crafting or some other tweak-able mechanic.
    Something that the player themselves can affect. So at first you got to worry about this but later you don't if you or other players craft the gear your using properly or something."

    is a great suggestion. I say this from the outside looking in (I plan on changing that aspect soon), but it is in my experience that gamers love to tweak, customize and individualize the characters. The point I would add is to make sure there are a variety of ways to accomplish this to varying degrees as you don't want everyone running around with the same 2 items that are "must haves", hence losing the individuality, whether they are loot or crafted. Even better, if players argue which one is a better choice, you have a winner.

    Oh, as I have not played yet, feel free to take that with a grain of salt. I also thought I should abstain from voting since I have not played yet.
     
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  12. Lupur

    Lupur Rookie Golden Founder

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    This is actually the thread that got me reading the forums, and i had the spark of what i consider a pretty cool idea.
    I'll try and keep this brief.. ish.. [ i lost the first draft, so this is a tad longer due to re-writes ]
    [ please note, all numbers are purely to demonstrate, they would need to be modified based on the 'feel' that the devs are going for ]

    ~~~ TLDR; ~~~

    Current Out of combat healing rate should remain the same, additionally :
    OOC Healing rates should increase exponentially based on how long you are out of combat.
    This exponential Healing Surge should only get you Close to full HP, not at Full HP, the rest would be replenished at the current slower rate.
    New Items that increase how close to full HP the Healing Surge gets you.
    Cash shop item at negligible cost as a convenience Item.
    Out of combat shield regen should just get a flat boost based on the quality / level of your gear, possibly as separate stat [ e.g. 'energized' gear increases OOC Shield boost by 2% total shield value ]

    ~~~ wall'o text; ~~~


    Lore

    While out of combat Mutants, Synths, and even the lowly Humans will experience increased healing rates, but never quite healing back to peak physical shape without either a lengthy period of time, or additional assistance.


    Mechanic - Healing Surge

    Once the Out Of Combat state is achieved, this triggers a Healing Surge.
    The Healing Surge will trigger every 2 second. [ it might be 'smoother' to have it trigger more often, with lower numbers, this is just for convenient explanation
    On Trigger [ t ] it will heal for 1.4% ^t hp [ percentage is of Total HP, and the number is just for ease of use ]
    t1 = 1.4 % , t2 = 1.96 % , t3 = 2.74 % , t4 = 3.84 % , t5 = 5.38 % , t6 = 7.53 % , t7 = 10.54 % , t8 = 14.76 % ,

    This means the total healing received will be:
    after 2 sec = 1.40 %
    after 4 sec = 3.36 %
    after 6 sec = 6.10 %
    after 8 sec = 9.95 %
    after 10 sec = 15.32 %
    after 12 sec = 22.85 %
    after 14 sec = 33.39 %
    after 16 sec = 48.15 %
    after 18 sec = 68.81 %
    after 20 sec = 97.74 %

    By making each second worth more HP than the last, this should reduce any impact that 'waiting time' might have.
    This means that at no point will anyone have to wait more than 20 seconds between combats to heal up. Weather this time is too short, and makes it seem kind of pointless, or too long and slows down gameplay too much, it is a definite improvement over what we have now, at the very least.


    Limits & Items

    Healing surge should only ever heal up to 75 % of your total HP.
    This is both somewhat realistic and leaves the window open for the creation of Healing Surge related Items - Healing Surge Boosters.

    They should come in 2 types - Small and Large
    There should be different ones for each level range [ 1 - 20, 21 - 40, etc ]
    As I imagine that most folks play in sessions of 1 - 3 hours, they should be buffs that last for 2 hours as a decent middle ground [ not needed often enough to make it annoying, but still at least 1 per session makes them relevant enough to think about ]
    The HSB Small should be readily available at most vendors in all areas, at a pretty reasonable price.
    The HSB Large should only be available at specific

    The HSB Small should allow to heal up to 85 % of your total HP
    The HSB Large should allow to heal up to 95 % of your total HP

    As a way to get use out of them when they are not in your level range, you could allow for a sort of transmutation.
    The ratio could be something along the lines of:
    7-8 lower level ones merge to crate the next level range up.
    1 higher level one would break down into 3-4 lower level ones.


    Market & Cash Shop

    In order to prevent situations where it might be cheaper to buy the lower ones and upgrade to your level, or do the reverse - buy higher and transmute down, it is vital the the shop cost of the item itself be somewhere in the middle of the Transmutation range [ following the above example, each tier would cost approximately 6x more than the last ]
    The other thing to take into account with consumables, especially where crafting is concerned, is weather they can be broken down into materials.
    In this particular situation, you'd want the Healing Surge Boosters to break down into a very small number of rather common materials. The math would be rather frustrating to figure out, but balancing crafting materials cost on the market along with store-bought items that can be broken down, is worth more than a single thread, and better left to those with higher attention spans than I.

    The Cash shop item I had in mind is purely a Convenience Item [ other than Cosmetic, these should be the only things available in a Cash Shop, EVER! ]

    The Healing Surge Booster Customized would be an item that has been specifically developed for your Character [ the item itself would be account bound, as character bound real money items just leave a bad taste in my mouth ]
    This makes the item usable at any level range, but has the down side of only allowing you to heal up to 90 % of your total HP.
    This would make the Crafted / Rare Drop HSB Large much more desirable at the more serious parts of the game, where folks are trying to squeeze them percentages. Obviously this would not be able to be broken down.


    The Price?

    I'd say the equivalent of $2.00 for 40.
    This should give the average player enough for around 2 weeks, and depending on what else is on the market, it would be a handy trickle of income.

    If you can get folks to reach for their wallet every couple of weeks, just because something is easy and cheap, that's at least half the battle; why not throw an extra $10 at the game and get that cool armor pattern while you're at it ?


    There are obviously things that I missed, but typing this out twice has sorta burned me out a tad.
    Apologies, and thanks for reading [ or at least pretending to, it is.. kinda long :/ ]


    o7 lup
     
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  13. NewbieGummi

    NewbieGummi Firestarter Founder

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    No, the only type of items available in shop should be cosmetic items. "Convenience items" is another word for boost items, because convenience is different for every player, for some it is convenient to 1-shot mobs. They will try to sneak in their own ideas of items, which are convenient for them. It always starts this way : one small thing in a new category of items, called a fancy name, which can be explained later in many ways, giving the opportunity to implement some totally out-of-balance items. It is "convenient" for me to boost up my max hp by 50%, because the dodging makes me inconvenient, I rather spend 100$ and not dodge, right?

    The same thing happens with your healing stuff. You regenerate more -> get to full hp faster than else -> kill more mobs in the same amount of time -> an obvious boost to the player. And if you already have an item to regenerate faster, why not give an item to directly boost the hp regeneration? Cosmetic items is the only category not to fall into this. There is no way for an adequate cosmetic item to affect the gameplay.
     
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  14. Mortis

    Mortis Rookie

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    A simple solution would be to have an exponential rate the longer you are out of combat, plus crafting something to start you farther along the curve
     
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  15. Lupur

    Lupur Rookie Golden Founder

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    Yeeep, that's a simplified version of what i wrote up, and probably more likely to be the correct answer ..
    I added the upper limit on HP healed to make it seem a wee bit more real, and to aid in immersion.

    I agree with almost everything you said, except for your opinion on the 'healing stuff'

    The main issue it seems you have, is my use of the phrase 'Convenience Items '.
    Yes, providing buffs in the Cash Shop is a slippery slope to pay to win and dilution of the game.
    This is why I specifically said that the cash shop item be midway between the items available in game.
    By having a consumable item in the Cash Shop that is only slightly better than something readily available, and still slightly worse than something that might actually take a little bit of effort, that makes it 'handy to have' .. i cant think of the right words for this :/

    An example:
    Most folks around here seem to have migrated from or at the very least visited FireFall.
    By the time a character hits max level, depending on how lucky they are, they might have a mixture of rarities in their gear.
    In fact, they might not even be using their favorite ability because they only ever found a lvl 20 green version.

    In my mind, a 'Convenient' Cash Shop purchase would be something akin to a full set of gear + abilities, in blue rarity and no prefixes, for a similarly low cost of ~ $2 .
    Honestly, at max level you should be able to find better gear to replace everything you just got in about 2 weeks of moderate to low play time, or pretty much straight away from a moderate to low investment on the market

    It's a convenience, as it helps folks transition from the 'max level but bad gear' phase into 'good enough gear to start earning proper gear' stage.


    Blergh, rambling aside, yes i wholly agree with you both, but I'm trying to find something more unique but relevant..
    Probably just adding pointless extra fat though :/


    o7 lup
     

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